(Editor's intro: Too many people, too often, have wrong ideas about what Astrology is and is not; what it can do, and what it can not. Astrology is neither the magic formula that will decide our lives for us - as many misled "believers" believe - nor the ancient superstition that non-believers think it is. The messages on this page define Astrology in each of the author's own words-- or rather, how this art should be used to better our lives, and what we should not expect it to do for us. I have decided to include almost the entire string - "Time to lay off astrology?" - as its topic is of paramount importance to all of us, and we all have something to say about it. It is the chief source of hostility and misunderstanding towards Astrology.
The first post was the original message in the thread.)
nagakanya.... Time to lay off astrology? 
13-Jun-98
I've been studying astrology since the first of the year and now I'm apprenticed to an astrologer. I've spent the past six months reading about how afflicted my chart is and how in its detriment my chart is and how unevolved my soul is and how I'm married to the wrong person. I used to feel pretty okay with my life. It's far from perfect, but I generally considered myself pretty fortunate. I used to be very happy in my marriage, even though it isn't perfect either. I used to believe in a loving god, instead of afflicted planets. Now I cry ALL the time and I am so depressed. I feel like astrology is starting to beat me down into a quivering little pile of nothing.
nagakanya
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Moonlady.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
.... First of all...I think I have to point out that Astrology is merely a "tool"! It is no better...and no worse...than any other "tool"! AND FURTHERMORE....as with the use of any other tool...it is only as good as the hands that it's in!!! Ask yourself: Are all surgeons of the same caliber? Or for that matter....is there ANY group of craftsmen that has all of their members TOTALLY equal in their "abilities"???? The answer is: NO! Of course not!!! Just as is true with the LARGER picture of life...there is good and bad in everything...every subset! There is such a thing known as "proper use" and there is also something called "missuse"!!!! PLEASE! DO NOT let Astrology make you cry...bring you down...or hurt you in ANY OTHER WAY!!! It's merely a TOOL which in all honesty...is actually meant to help free you to a certain degree....(with the light that it sheds)...not to imprison you with despair!!! I have consciensiouly studied Astrology now for some 2 years...and while that doesn't seem like a lot of time...TIME WISE...I assure you that the TIME is irrelevant as my study time has been very very intense....and that THAT has to be factored into the picture! I tell you this because it is pertinent to this discussion! I tell you this because I too...in my study...have run across those "gloom and doom" kind of people! I tell you this because YOU still make the choices!!!! Just because someone writes a book...doesn't make them bright...or knowledgeable...or even CORRECT! Just because someone has the "official" title of "ASTROLOGER"...does not mean that they are an "Astrologer"! I have heard many an erroneous (if not down right STUPID) remark out of the mouth of many who consider themselves "well versed" in a subject!!!
Please rethink your "alligence" to any one or any thing....that causes you pain!!! Learn to discriminate for YOURSELF what is good and what is not! Please learn to WEED out what is not conducive to your own growing and learning and (of course) HAPPINESS!!! Please DO NOT put stock in the "words" or "theories" or ONE PERSON who is NO BETTER than you are!!!!
However....I must point out again that what I'm saying ...is so much broader than just Astrology!!! What you have talked about here is actually a SPIRITUAL matter! NO ONE...and NO THING...is DOOMED! In fact...that is truly the OPPOSITE of what Astrology is actually all about!!!
The Natal Chart is not unlike that old ~Glass of Water~ question! *S* Some look at it and say....:-( It's only half filled. Others look at it and say: WOW! it's half filled! *S*
Do you see what I mean??? *S*
.....and rethink studying under the tutilege of ANYONE that makes you think anything OTHER than that there IS a loving GOD!!!!
Seek Happiness...and You shall FIND IT! *S* Actually...you said you already had it ....*S*....you've just gotta get it BACK! *S*
Byeeee for now!
Love & Light and ALL THE BEST TO YOU!!!
~*Moonlady*~
Moonlady
Email:
[email protected]
Emaille.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
If only you could come and sit here with me. And we talk about astrology. I totally agree with Moonlady. Seek your self an other teacher, or beter to do, put your questions in to farmes to question your teacher. Ask and wonder how can this be.. Be critical, but do NOT DOUBT your feelings or self experience..
Learn te interpret it is not easy, one must have the feeling of it. ] Me as an asatrologer think it is soo very important to give a student or cli�nt has the power to make somthing of his/her life.
Most of the time people left my home with a happy look on there face.
Astrology has a language you must learn to speak, and then it tells you things you can compare with your own inner voice and experience.
And not to forget all the mistakes we can make.. And bisedes there are many different viewpoints to look at astrology. And the calculation, the philosophy behind it, look carefully and check what you like and feel is good for you. Be willing to change and be flexible, do not let you put in depression by doom thinking.
And conflicts?? They give us the change to carry out all of our creative powers.
Love from Emaille.
Please stay open, and listen to other aastrologers as well.
Emaille
Email: Not available
yet
Venity.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
nagakanya!!!!
Listen to Moonlady!!! She offers so many good points....she was a sweetheart to write the things she wrote when in such a rush!!@!!
I refuse to make judgements of people without knowing them, but, this astrologer who has been telling you these bad things about your chart cannot be a very good astrologer...(that is only my opinion)....because....(and this is only what I think).....
There are always two sides to every coin....ESPECIALLY when it comes to astrology... Is'nt there always negative AND positive information written about the planets, houses and aspects??? Maybe your astrology "tutor" person has been looking at the negative only and emphasizing this and this only.
I have raised this question here in astrochat before because I was concerned about my Mars in the 8th in Leo....I read somewhere that I was likely to die a violent death....BUT the wonderful people in here informed me that this placement of Mars had only a maybe very small possibility of occuring.....Actually, my mars gives my personality and character strength in a deep sea of cluttered planets ruled by water and the dream-like planets ruled by air.
I read in a book somewhere that there is no such thing as a bad chart, only bad astrologers. Some of the nastiest, unlucky and unfortunate people have beautiful positive charts. Also, the opposite is said to be true. Have you ever taken a look at Adolph Hitler's chart??? Perhaps Mother Teresa's??? Look at Oprah Winfrey.....she has a very interesting chart. This is woman who has had a lot to deal with and to overcome, but, just look where she is now!!! Look at the wonderful person she seems to be!!!@!
Maybe you would like to post your birth data and some of the nice people in here will take a look at it for you. I promise you, your chart cannot possibly be ALL or even MOSTLY bad.
Anyone else in here feel the same way???
***Venity***XOXOXO
Venity
Email:
[email protected]
Stanstar.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
Nagakanya my wee sweetheart don't you listen to that So called astrologer you are apprenticing to -what are you doing anyway -is he/she only telling you what to read or what ? Whoever the so called Astrologer is they are not responsible and should on no account be listened to!! Moonlady, Emaille and Venity are all giving you VERY good advice -I entirely agree with them ! There is NO SUCH THING as a bad chart-If you have nothing more to do with that person again it would please me sweetheart!...
Start believing in yourself AGAIN please!!!....
Stanstar
Stanstar
Email:
[email protected]
rita.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
Well whatever it is you are apprenticed to...it ain't an astrologer!!
You are getting a take on the old cookbook sort of interps...if planet ~a~ is in sign ~b~ and in house ~c~ blah de blah...then you are a no-good-moronic-pillock-who-will-suffer-much-in-your-life.....etc etc etc...
My suggestion is to go learn for yourself ....you will see around in the rooms many books being suggested that are excellent reading.
And..hey..no worries....I think I was told I am gonna die a long lonely death cos I got saturn in the 4th!!! Well dear...I guess me and all the rest of the folks with this combo can get ourselves together and form an association...and we can keep each other company during our ordeal...LOL
rita
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Nina-Marie.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
Hi Nagakanya. The others are quite right and it's good to see lots of support there for you. I think more than anything it's a matter of perspective. In western astrology trines and sextile are seen as 'favourable' and indicate natural talents and opportunities to learn without too many obstacles etc and squares and oppositions are seen as difficult. Well, in my experience and I've got a pretty even scattering of aspects in my chart, the 'difficult' aspects are the ones that are really active and when things go right I get the most pleasure out of when I can get those energies to align. There's a sense of accomplishment and that I have really learned something worthwhile. I think these aspects are the real opportunities. The difficult mixes usually depend on the planets involved in the aspects. Depending on them, (like say Saturn and Moon or Uranus and Moon, Venus Mars etc-- you know outer planets that can be pretty tough on the more sensitive planets) even so called 'good' aspects can create their own set of 'problems'. The point is, your chart gives you a sense or a description of what you may experience in this life and the focus you have in this life. As far as a 'competition' between who is more evolved than another...well, we are all at different stages of our journey and it is absolutely irrelevant. I find that such thinking can be a really silly aspect of human nature that needs to feel good, by making others feel lousy and this happens in all walks of life, even with those who have higher aspirations in pursuing the more spiritual of life. Do not despair just because others act like losers. Life is not merely a competition of evolvement with others but very importantly you're individual journey 'in relation' to others in the life you've chosen. Astrology is clearly something you've look to, to assist you, and even though it is not the be all and end all, I agree with the others that it is a good way to enter into the complexity of life. Astrology can give it some structure when we reflect upon our experiences. Your life is the point, not your chart! I hope this helps.
Nina-Marie
Email:
kalypso.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
Nagakanya
I'm going to add my comments in support of absolutely everything that has been said above. I would very strongly urge you to reassess your relationship with the person you're currently studying Astrology. It shouldn't cause you pain. And as has been pointed out earlier, all astrologers are not created equal.
A chart isn't "good" or "bad". What is reflected is the karma of a person's life. The up and downs, ebb and flow. This is perfectly normal. Woody Allen has a very difficult chart with little relief. Yet his life is hardly a failure. The adversities in his chart are exactly what led him to be as creative as he is AND THAT is also indicated in his chart. And in learning to do chart analysis you have to learn how to read the whole picture and integrate it into a whole, not pick and choose things on which to focus. It then becomes very much like taking something someone has said out of context......the whole meaning is changed. This sounds very much like what's happened to you. Astrology isn't goin gto provide instant spirtuality or growth, it will merely provide you with options and perhaps point in a direction or two. The choices and decisions are solely yours. A chart doesn't mandate anything.
Good luck, hang in there.
Kalypso
kalypso
Email:
[email protected]
nagakanya.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
bless all of you for your responses, I am quite overwhelmed, it brings tears to my eyes. I really hate to sound like boo-hoo, here I am a victim of my chart, but sometimes I do feel like a victim of my chart. Anyway I didn't mean to give the impression that it's my astrology teacher laying this trip on me, actually she is very good and has a strong background in Jungian psychology. Most of what depresses me is some of the books I've read, like The Astrologer's Handbook, which came highly recommended from someone whose opinion I respect, and other books which I would sometimes like to throw out the window. Dire predictions like what Venity was describing. I don't yet have any astrology software, but the other night I was doing a comparison between my and my husband's chart by hand and when I saw the long list of squares and oppositions, I wanted to throw up my hands. Anyway, I do realize that astrology is meant to be a tool, I'm just not quite sure how to use it yet. Stanstar, I do remember your answer to my question about unaspected planets. My illustrious ancestor once laid siege to a castle in Edinburgh, I don't remember it's name right off hand, but I am sitting here this very minute listening to bagpipe music just for you.
By the way, I was born 5/31/57 at 94W34 39N05 for those of you who requested my birth data and try not to gasp in horror if you run my chart. Thanks a million. I hope I can do all of you a big favor someday too.
nagakanya
Email:
bozena.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
hi everyone, I am agree what you all saying but unfortunetly there are a lot of people who feel to have special "gift" to do it, not helping but upseting you by reading. Many years ago I met person who gave me good dirrection where to start to learn astrology. She offered to me to look up on my chart and...:( It was bad idea. I do not understand what motivated that person to say things she said,as of the time of reading.Most of it was upsetting. I do think a lot of it.I have more knowledge now but that does not clear my memory from what I fear of since that time. I like to look at Astrology as a tool to help people better undestanding yourself and others( as Liz Greene in her seminars). I am not astrologer but very steady "student".
bozena
Email:
Pathfinder.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
I'd like to share a few of my thoughts about Astrology and destiny....
No, you should never feel that you are a victim of your chart, because the gods didn't draw your chart for you; believe it or not, YOU did. We all do. All the misfortunes we have now, we brought upon ourselves. The truth is that we are responsible for our own fates, not God.
You should take a manly -- or rather, womanly -- approach to this. Blame not Astrology. In fact, you should be happy with it, because now you know where your problems are, and KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE. Just bear in mind that everything is your own doing. We reap only what we sow. You are today what you have made yourself to be yesterday. And even more important, remember that you can now use Astrology as a tool to recover from your misfortunes.
As for those books: read them only to get an idea about placements/aspects. But please, for your own sake, don't read them like Holy Writ. They are NOT the final word on Astrology; NOTHING is, not even a single word that Dane Rudhyar wrote. If someone has the last word on your chart, it is YOU.
I once thanked Providence for introducing me to Astrology when I was 17 years old, and yet quite ready for it. I was mentally and psychologically prepared. I am sad to see that Astrology has seemed harder on you, or you had a wrong notion about it. However, I'm sure that in the future, you'll come to realize that you're not a victim of the stars, but a sum of your own deeds. There are no victims in this world; only those who fancy they are. You'll learn, in your own time, and become strong.
Best wishes, Pathfinder
P.S. Many of the world's most remarkable people-- famous or not-- have grand squares, t-squares, etc. EVERY experienced Astrologer will tell you: "The WORST people have the BEST charts, and vice versa."...
Pathfinder
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Amelia.... Re: Time to lay off astrology?
13-Jun-98
I ran across two wonderful poems to share in light of this discussion.
Apart from me There is neither wisdom, Nor knowledge, nor understanding. Into every state of knowledge do I enter, Into false knowledge as well as into true, So that I am not less the ignorance of the deluded Than the wisdom of the sage. For what thou callest ignorance and folly Is my pure knowing, Imperfectly expressed Through an uncompleted image Of my divine perfection.
Woe unto them Who condemns these my works unfinished! Behold, they who presume to judge Are themselves incomplete. Through many a fiery trial of sorrow Must they pass, Ere the clear beauty of my wisdom May shine from out their hearts, Like unto a light Burning in a lamp of alabaster.
The above is is told from The Book of Tokens and retold by Isabel Hickey and retold by me to you.
Pathfinder, the prayer below is for you. The Healing Prayer By Walter Devoe
Loving Father, I recognize that my life is one with Thy unlimited life and power.
Thy constructive Mind is within me building my mind and body in strength and perfection.
I open my mind to the influx of Thy might Presence of health and peace.